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	<title>Comments on: On &#8220;The Story of Cap and Trade&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.standupeconomist.com/blog/economics/on-the-story-of-cap-and-trade/</link>
	<description>What is (and isn&#039;t) funny about economics</description>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.standupeconomist.com/blog/economics/on-the-story-of-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-2339</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 17:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Once you track the carbon fuel sources sufficiently to tax them, you could also just require sources to have a permit… and that’s cap-and-trade.&quot;

I see! I was thinking about something else and didn&#039;t notice the difference.

If the goal is to burn fossil fuel with less pollution, then you need to track who&#039;s doing the pollution. Once you know who that is, you can tax them or give them permits.

But if the goal is to reduce fossil fuel burning and encourage alternatives, then it&#039;s enough to tax *fossil fuel* &lt;b&gt;sources&lt;/b&gt; and let them pass the added costs on until those costs reach final customers. Customers might still pollute when they burn, but it will cost them more and alternatives will be relatively cheaper than they would otherwise. Fossil fuels become more expensive for all uses and the uses do not have to be tracked -- the market passes those expenses wherever the fuel goes.

When the goal is to burn with less pollution, then you must measure the pollution. Polluters win just as much by finding ways to hide their pollution as they do by actually reducing it. Lots of information to track, lots of chances for corruption.

The more that we can get alternative energy sources to replace fossil fuels, the better off we are when the fossil fuels get scarce enough to drive up the price. It&#039;s like when you&#039;re driving, you want to start looking for a gas station before your engine starts sputtering because you&#039;re running out of gas. The time that free markets signal that supply is down and cannot go up, may not be the best time to start building a whole new infrastructure. But this is a different problem from fossil fuel pollution.

If we just focus on getting alternative energy, that doesn&#039;t stop fossil fuels from polluting while they&#039;re still getting burned. It doesn&#039;t even stop the alternate energy from polluting.

A different problem. Taxing fossil fuels is easy. Taxing them when they pollute according to how much they pollute is much harder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Once you track the carbon fuel sources sufficiently to tax them, you could also just require sources to have a permit… and that’s cap-and-trade.&#8221;</p>
<p>I see! I was thinking about something else and didn&#8217;t notice the difference.</p>
<p>If the goal is to burn fossil fuel with less pollution, then you need to track who&#8217;s doing the pollution. Once you know who that is, you can tax them or give them permits.</p>
<p>But if the goal is to reduce fossil fuel burning and encourage alternatives, then it&#8217;s enough to tax *fossil fuel* <b>sources</b> and let them pass the added costs on until those costs reach final customers. Customers might still pollute when they burn, but it will cost them more and alternatives will be relatively cheaper than they would otherwise. Fossil fuels become more expensive for all uses and the uses do not have to be tracked &#8212; the market passes those expenses wherever the fuel goes.</p>
<p>When the goal is to burn with less pollution, then you must measure the pollution. Polluters win just as much by finding ways to hide their pollution as they do by actually reducing it. Lots of information to track, lots of chances for corruption.</p>
<p>The more that we can get alternative energy sources to replace fossil fuels, the better off we are when the fossil fuels get scarce enough to drive up the price. It&#8217;s like when you&#8217;re driving, you want to start looking for a gas station before your engine starts sputtering because you&#8217;re running out of gas. The time that free markets signal that supply is down and cannot go up, may not be the best time to start building a whole new infrastructure. But this is a different problem from fossil fuel pollution.</p>
<p>If we just focus on getting alternative energy, that doesn&#8217;t stop fossil fuels from polluting while they&#8217;re still getting burned. It doesn&#8217;t even stop the alternate energy from polluting.</p>
<p>A different problem. Taxing fossil fuels is easy. Taxing them when they pollute according to how much they pollute is much harder.</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.standupeconomist.com/blog/economics/on-the-story-of-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-2324</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.standupeconomist.com/?p=813#comment-2324</guid>
		<description>Doesn &#039;t cap-and-trade require a lot of government intervention? You have to decide how much pollution is going on, and how much it should cost, and you have to regulate the trades to prevent fraud. Lots of opportunities for fraud and for corruption, lots of paperwork.

To do a carbon tax you have to track the carbon fuel sources, and tax them. And you have to figure out what to do with the money. Apart from that, the market could take care of itself. 

You say they&#039;re practically the same thing. Is it that the advantage of regulating carbon is large enough that the details don&#039;t matter? Or have I missed the point?

&lt;em&gt;YB: Once you track the carbon fuel sources sufficiently to tax them, you could also just require sources to have a permit... and that&#039;s cap-and-trade. &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doesn &#8216;t cap-and-trade require a lot of government intervention? You have to decide how much pollution is going on, and how much it should cost, and you have to regulate the trades to prevent fraud. Lots of opportunities for fraud and for corruption, lots of paperwork.</p>
<p>To do a carbon tax you have to track the carbon fuel sources, and tax them. And you have to figure out what to do with the money. Apart from that, the market could take care of itself. </p>
<p>You say they&#8217;re practically the same thing. Is it that the advantage of regulating carbon is large enough that the details don&#8217;t matter? Or have I missed the point?</p>
<p><em>YB: Once you track the carbon fuel sources sufficiently to tax them, you could also just require sources to have a permit&#8230; and that&#8217;s cap-and-trade. </em></p>
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		<title>By: Nate Holdsworh</title>
		<link>http://www.standupeconomist.com/blog/economics/on-the-story-of-cap-and-trade/comment-page-1/#comment-1932</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Holdsworh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.standupeconomist.com/?p=813#comment-1932</guid>
		<description>You know Yoram, Einstein would disagree with you.  He said &quot;you can&#039;t solve a problem i the mind state that created it.&quot;  So, you think you&#039;re smarter than Einstein??  : ) J/K I agree that cap and trade is the first step, but I also think it is not ideal.  We are forced to work within the constraints of the system we have created for ourselves.  We are stuck in a political/ privatized corporate box and must work within it to find a way out I suppose.  It would be nice to see a paradigm shift away from short term profit to long term sustainability eventually.  Can the market forces aid in this shift?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know Yoram, Einstein would disagree with you.  He said &#8220;you can&#8217;t solve a problem i the mind state that created it.&#8221;  So, you think you&#8217;re smarter than Einstein??  : ) J/K I agree that cap and trade is the first step, but I also think it is not ideal.  We are forced to work within the constraints of the system we have created for ourselves.  We are stuck in a political/ privatized corporate box and must work within it to find a way out I suppose.  It would be nice to see a paradigm shift away from short term profit to long term sustainability eventually.  Can the market forces aid in this shift?</p>
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